Marketing Madmen: Mike Jasper’s Journey from Mailroom to Brand Partnership Expert
Mike Jasper’s journey from mailroom to top WME agent, discussing marketing evolution, brand partnerships, and industry insights.
Welcome to the Marketing Madmen! In this episode, Nick Constantino and Mike Jasper dive into their shared journey in the marketing world. From their beginnings at Clear Channel to Mike’s current role at WME, they discuss the evolution of marketing, the significance of relationships, and the complexities of deal-making in the entertainment industry. Gain valuable insights into the future of brand partnerships and the impact of authenticity in advertising.
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Key Takeaways:
- The journey from mailroom to top agent at WME
- The importance of relationships in the marketing industry
- The evolution of marketing from radio to brand partnerships
- Insights into the complexities of deal-making
- The role of authenticity in advertising
- Future trends in marketing and brand partnerships
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Summary:
Happy. Welcome to the marketing Mad Men, Nick Constantino here, and we’ve got a show. Nick and his friend Mike Jasper are about to embark on an improvised conversation, fueled by their longstanding friendship and a few beers.
Introducing Mr. Jasper: Mike Jasper, a longtime friend of Nick’s for nearly 15 years, reflects on their journey together.
From Clear Channel to iHeartMedia: The two reminisce about their early days at Clear Channel, now iHeartMedia. Mike began as a high school intern, navigating the promotions department, eventually landing in sales during the 2009 recession. The sales job was a tough initiation into the world of ad sales, with Mike calling on small businesses in the DC area to sell $100 on-air ads.
The Evolution of Marketing: Marketing has transformed significantly over the years. The radio industry, with its diverse clients and fast-paced environment, provided a solid foundation for both Nick and Mike. They worked with stations like Hot 99.5, WM, ZQ, and Wash FM, gaining invaluable experience.
Fast Forward to WME: Today, Mike Jasper is a tenured brand partnership agent at WME (William Morris Endeavor). He specializes in brokering brand partnerships and commercial endorsements for country music artists out of Nashville. Mike’s journey began in the mailroom of WME’s LA office in 2012, where he pushed a mail cart, met key people, and learned the ropes of the industry.
The Road to Success: Mike’s time in the mailroom was challenging, designed to test and prepare him for the next steps. The industry’s demand allowed for rigorous entry-level experiences, reflecting the glamour and grueling nature of the job. Despite the challenges, Mike persevered, learning to navigate the complex world of music, film, television, and literary publishing.
Pop Culture Influence: Shows like “Entourage” and films like “Jerry Maguire” have exposed the behind-the-scenes work of agents and managers to the public, adding to the industry’s allure. Mike’s journey from pushing a mail cart to becoming a top agent is a testament to his dedication and resilience.
Mailroom Purpose: Mike explains that the mailroom is not like a fraternity but a place designed to break you down to the bare bones and train you in the specific systems, methodologies, and strategies of the agency. The long hours and low pay were part of building a foundation for success within the company.
Ari Emanuel’s Influence: The top-down leadership, epitomized by Ari Emanuel, plays a crucial role in maintaining the rigorous training process. Mike reflects on how many people fail to move beyond the mailroom, with only a small percentage making it to become agents.
Perseverance and Dedication: Despite the challenges, Mike saw the potential opportunities and remained dedicated to his path. The credentials, access, and experiences he gained were invaluable, especially at a young age with no family responsibilities.
Changing Perks: As Mike advanced in his career, the nature of the perks changed. He transitioned from chasing superficial rewards to being in rooms with powerful people, appreciating the stage of life he was in.
Mailroom as Grad School: Mike likens the mailroom to his grad school, a place to understand the largest agency in the world and its nucleus. This experience provided a unique education that formal schooling couldn’t offer.
Industry Insight: Mike emphasizes that many industries, including sports, have similar entry-level programs to ensure new hires understand the nuances of the departments. These programs are essential in identifying and nurturing the best talent.
Moment of Clarity: Mike recalls the moment when he started to understand the industry’s ecosystem fully. It was during his tenure as a senior assistant, around three years into the job, that he realized he could be great at his work. He recognized the importance of understanding trends, framing, and positioning in becoming a successful agent.
Role of Agents: Mike has worked hard to erase the stigma that agents are solely about money. He believes that agents make transactions easier and save clients significant headaches. The role of an agent is to achieve clients’ goals through effective communication and representation.
Understanding the Nuances of Deal-Making: Mike explains that while agents aim to capture the most dollars possible, the true art lies in structuring the deal. Brands may not know the artist’s preferences or upcoming projects, making the agent’s role crucial in translating needs and desires between the artist and the brand. An artist doesn’t pay an agent 10% just for fun; they do it to avoid direct negotiations and maintain their focus on creativity.
Establishing Value Proposition: Nick and Mike discuss the importance of differentiating between price and value. An agent’s job is to establish a value proposition that benefits all parties. This understanding, coupled with experience, helps in negotiating deals that are mutually beneficial.
Role of a Translator: Mike sees himself as a translator, bridging the language gap between brands and artists. Brands focus on products and services, while artists concentrate on their art. They need someone to help translate these worlds. Fortune 500 companies have corporate policies, whereas artists have creative freedom, creating a need for someone to navigate these differences.
Independent Nature of Artists: Artists have significant flexibility and freedom due to the demand for their work. In most cases, brands need access to entertainers more than entertainers need the brands, making the artist’s autonomy even more pronounced.
Authenticity in Advertising: The conversation touches on the importance of authenticity in advertising. Brands engage talent to leverage their relationship with fans. However, people are becoming more educated and can spot inauthentic endorsements. Artists and brands both need to ensure their collaborations are genuine to maintain credibility.
Importance of Relationships: Building and maintaining relationships is crucial in the industry. Trust between all parties is vital. Mike emphasizes that while he can make a deal happen, he also bears the risk of upsetting either party if things don’t go as planned.
Day-to-Day Operations and Deal Structure: Mike outlines the complexities of deal-making. WME has a structured approach, with many agents potentially competing for similar deals. The time to negotiate and finalize a deal can vary greatly—from a few days for a social media post to several months for a tour sponsorship. Renewals might be quicker, but the initial deal process is often lengthy and intricate.
Rapid Changes Due to COVID: COVID accelerated the pace of change in the industry. Artists can quickly rise to fame and fall out of popularity within months, a stark contrast to the more stable progression seen in the past, especially in the country music scene where there was a clear path from small venues to stadium tours.
Small Deals: An example of a small deal is a one-off social media post. Brands engage an artist for a single post, which could be an Instagram story or a TikTok post. These deals, though small in scope, can still be financially significant, often reaching five figures.
Pricing Sensitivities: The price for social media posts is primarily determined by engagement rather than the total number of followers. Brands often ask for detailed analytics of an artist’s social media performance to determine fair value. This data-driven approach can sometimes clash with the reality of an artist’s market value and the time and effort required to create content.
Supply and Demand: Artists can charge more for posts because they take fewer deals, maintaining exclusivity and value. Fandom also plays a significant role; the personal preferences of decision-makers can influence deals, demonstrating the importance of relationships and passion in the industry.
Influence and Relationships: Trust and relationships are crucial. Mike emphasizes that knowing the right decision-makers can make or break a deal, and personal connections often trump analytical data in decision-making processes. Long-term renewals are the hallmark of successful partnerships.
Complex Mega Deals: Mike touches on some major deals, like Zack Bryan with Budweiser, Luke Combs with T-Mobile, and Kane Brown with Crown Royal. These 360 deals involve multiple touchpoints, including marketing, social media, PR, and personal appearances. Though brands are getting smarter, these comprehensive deals are still highly rewarding to work on.
Examples of Complex Deals: Mike recalls deals from his time at Live Nation, like the exclusive partnership with Starwood Hotels, which required extensive travel logistics. He explains how artists must adhere to brand protocols, even in their personal lives, to maintain the integrity of these deals. This highlights the complexity and value of such partnerships, as brands seek to ensure their image is consistently represented by the artists they collaborate with.
Non-Monetary Value and Contractual Nuances: Mike and Nick delve into the non-monetary value of deals. Often, it’s not just about money, but about the alignment of values and long-term benefits. Contracts can be tricky, with lawyers often keeping terms vague, making it harder to breach but also harder to define breaches clearly. Negotiating intellectual property deals, like with the University of Georgia, has become increasingly complex over the years.
Trust and Clarity in Contracts: The evolving nature of contracts highlights the importance of trust between parties. Mike emphasizes that understanding the intricate details of contracts provides a significant advantage in negotiations. Contracts can be lengthy, outlining numerous scenarios, but real-life situations can still present unforeseen challenges.
Favorite Deal: Mike’s favorite deal was in 2016 for artist Eric Paslay with Dexcom, a company that created a continuous glucose monitor. This deal was particularly meaningful as it fundamentally changed Eric’s life, allowing him to monitor his glucose levels more effectively. The deal was a win-win for all involved, showcasing how impactful and beneficial brand partnerships can be.
Navigating Stress and Anxiety: Mike reflects on the importance of managing stress and anxiety, common aspects of life that drive many people’s actions. Stress is the body’s reaction to challenges, while anxiety stems from our evolutionary past. Learning to handle these emotions is crucial for success. Comparing oneself to others can be detrimental, and it’s essential to understand that everyone has their own struggles.
Personal Growth and Perspective: Mike shares that not caring about others’ opinions has been a superpower for him. Moving frequently and experiencing diverse situations have shaped his perspective. Often, the wealthiest or seemingly happiest people face significant personal challenges. He made a conscious effort to reduce his social media presence to protect his children’s privacy and avoid the pitfalls of outward-facing mechanisms.
Social Media Highlight Reels: Mike and Nick discuss how social media often presents everyone’s highlight reel. People tend to see only the best moments of others’ lives, creating a distorted perception of reality. Mike shares an anecdote about someone editing their Instagram photos during a concert, highlighting how pervasive this behavior has become.
Future of Deals and Partnerships: The conversation shifts to the future of brand deals and partnerships. Mike and Nick predict that augmented reality (AR) will play a significant role in creating engaging brand experiences. Consumers and brands will increasingly focus on creating lasting memories rather than just consumable products. However, organic and memorable moments are hard to fake, and forced experiences can be easily spotted by savvy consumers.
Innovative Campaigns: Lyft’s Undercover Driver campaign is cited as an example of brilliant and impactful marketing. Mike praises Liquid Death’s marketing but predicts that the brand may either be sold off or become mainstream, losing its unique appeal. The discussion touches on how some brands create media companies to control their narratives and maintain influence.
Experiential and Intimate Marketing: The future of marketing is seen as more experiential and intimate. Large festivals may give way to more exclusive events that money can’t buy. Brands will invest in creating moments that resonate deeply with consumers, leveraging non-monetary value propositions such as using an artist’s new single in a national TV campaign.
Impact of AI and Data: AI and data will become increasingly important in the industry. Live Nation is already using AI to predict interest in artists and plan tours. As AI becomes more proactive, it will fundamentally shift how deals are structured and executed. However, Mike emphasizes that data alone cannot replace the instinct and creativity needed to elicit emotional reactions from consumers.
Return to Authenticity: The conversation concludes with a prediction that there will be a resurgence of authentic, grassroots creativity in music. People may revolt against overly commercialized content and gravitate towards genuine, emotionally resonant art, reminiscent of the mid-60s and early 70s. This shift will create new opportunities for artists and brands to connect with audiences on a deeper level.
Final Thoughts: Mike and Nick reflect on the importance of trusting relationships and the ever-evolving nature of the industry. They appreciate the complexities and rewards of their work, and look forward to the exciting developments that lie ahead.
Transcript:
Happy. Welcome to the marketing Mad Men, Nick Constantino here, and we’ve got a show. Got my boy here. We’re going to have some fun, fun conversations, and this is completely improv. Doesn’t know what we’re talking about. I don’t. What we’re talking. We got beer, so let’s hit it First off.
Mr. Jasper, please introduce. My name is Marc Jasper. I am a longtime friend of Nick’s. We met known each other. Almost 15 years.
Bye.
I mean, it might be only 15 years.
15 years.
Call it that something nice right number.
A little bit longer.
Yep. And now he’s. A no fly list. So that’s a good start.
Yep, that’s right.
So, so Jasper, let’s let’s start with let’s go back. We met back in the. We were at Clear Channel now iHeartMedia, so we were at Clear Channel. We started radio together. What do you remember about that office? We were in Washington. What do you remember about that? What? What? What comes to mind about those times at? Back then.
I remember. You know, first and foremost, I started there when I was a I was a senior in high.
You’re a baby.
It was my summer internship leading in my senior year and then I was an intern there all throughout senior year. And worked in the promotions department all through college. And then when I graduated, I was looking for a job. Thought, oh, I’ll just go back and work in the promotions department. Turns out that the 2009 recession. That from happening stuck me on the sales floor.
Little bit.
Where I met you.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, not you, you know. And it was interesting because coming out of college, you’re trying to figure out what you’re doing in. You know the world is your oyster and all of a sudden it’s like, here’s a job that’s 100% Commission and you need to go call every blind shop and flower shop in the DC metro area and try to sell them $100 on air ad.
Yep.
I much remember what it’s.
And hope they buy.
It was called the draw back then, so pretty much the means is they pay you money but. You don’t make it back in condition. You owe money. From. An amazing thing, and luckily they it doesn’t. Doesn’t work that way anymore, but. You know, one of the things I tell people is marketing has changed so much. Like you can’t be a specialist anymore and 1:00.
That’s correct.
The. Ways to have yourself thrown into the fire is working in radio. The kinds of clients you see the field at. How many?
That’s right. Yeah.
It is just, it is a free for all and everybody. It is a world of C. Which? Not saying it in a bad way. I’m saying most people around you are just. To figure it. This is not rocket. There’s no Harvard degree baccalaureate behind it running. This is just see students all trying to figure stuff out and honestly I I don’t know if I ever would have went into marketing or done what I did if I did not have that base in it. So so, you know we we got started. Got to know each other. Just shout out the stations real fast.
Yeah, DC1 alone. Hot 9 on five WM.
DC11.
Zq, Wash FM. And then there’s a more.
Was a news station, wasn’t it?
Yeah, yeah. There’s also WTOP or something like that.
That’s fine. No. We would all be much wealthier. That’s another part of the media industry. Also. Having that makes you forget everything that’s going on, so we’ll save that conversation for more R. Time all. So we’re in. We did a lot of stuff. We ran on a lot, so a lot of different things.
Yeah. Ad sales, ad sales then was was a unique unique unique place, right? Because you were you were selling your. You were selling your website space or you were selling event sponsorship.
Yep. And we were early in the website space, it feel like attack along where it had some streaming or some stuff like.
Yeah. We we were selling, we were selling banner.
It wasn’t yesterday.
By. Pixel which is insane.
Which is a crazy thing to think about. Oh, but anyway. But anyway, so let’s Fast forward a little. So we’ll put the cart before the horse. Really. So now Mr. Jasper is one of the most accomplished agents for. The corporate name WME, William Morris Endeavor, Ari Emanuel, whatever you want to call it. But to get there, he had to start in the. And I know it’s cliche and people talk about it, but talk a little bit about. Heading out to. Talk about the ambition. You. Why you wanted to get into it and what you actually had to do to get into it? Because I think that will make the next conversation we talked about what the life is for an agent a lot more interesting.
Yeah. So just to set the stage and and give anyone listening a little bit of background. I currently AM. A 12 year tenured brain partnership agent at WME and I work in our National office and I.
Leaning on country music leading court.
Correct my. Concentration. My daily concentration is to broker brand partnerships and commercial endorsements for the roster of country music artists that we represent out of Nashville. So I’ve been for 12 years and I actually started in the LA office. I moved to Los Angeles in early 2012. I found my way into the mail room at WELA in. Spring of 2012. Where I literally pushed a mail cart. I I delivered the mail, I got to start meeting the people that were there, the assistants, the agents, the the support staff and really start understanding the ecosystem of WME at the time.
Yeah, but that was not their. Their intention was to break you and make sure that you can do this so you even have the privilege of. To the next level. It was like only 1/2 of a step up to begin with, and I say that jokingly. But when there’s so much demand to be in an industry, they have the ability to do that.
That’s correct. You know, if you go back to 2012, which I think was. The good old days were ending, right? There were years in the Seventies, 80s and 90s where it was, you know, flush with money, racial Porsches down sunset, at lunch, glitz and glam and those types of.
There’s so many less people in the industry, right? It’s a contract agent.
That’s correct. It wasn’t. It. It wasn’t. There’s a lot sponsorships. It wasn’t sexy, right?
Yeah.
So the people were making all that money was because there was only 8 of them making all that. Now there’s hundreds of thousands of them in these fields that are sharing money, having access to tickets. They get the perks of life so.
Right. Well, but then let’s talk about pop culture, though, because you had. Terry McGuire, you had shows like Entourage, so all of a sudden the the kind of behind the scenes that an agent or a manager or anyone in the industry their day-to-day role is all of a sudden exposed. Not a bad way but exposed to the mass. People start started to understand, oh, there are people behind the scenes that are actually doing the admin and the logistics to make. Work. So I’m in the mail room back in 2012 and I’m learning how to work phones. Learning who all the booking agents and the tour marketing agents. Agents are and this is only within the music department, right?
Sure.
They’re still film and television. Still, books in literary. There’s still, you know, publishing.
And they haven’t even got into the sports because you guys had an acquired.
I’m here at the time cook.
Haven’t even got into the sports.
Wouldn’t happen for another 2.
Own beast in itself. I mean. Now because of the way these NL deals are working, you got high school kids that are on these. It’s just getting bigger and bigger. The amount of money being thrown gets bigger and bigger, but we’re back in the mailroom.
Yeah, right.
So again. Like just, you know, they joke about it. Pushing a car in the mailroom, it started in Wall Street. Israeli would have started.
Correct.
Kids have push carts in Wall Street. What was that? How long did you do? What did you have to endure to get yourself to the next level? Man I. I won’t tell the full story when you came. See me in. I won’t go into too much detail of that one, but I will say that you were almost broken at that point. Were always a positive kid. Knew you. But the tear and the toll it was taken on, you really was manifesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, right.
I I think for anyone that wants to try to comprehend and understand what the mailroom is, is don’t think of it. Fraternity. That’s that’s not what it is, right? No crazy things that are happen. Except for the fact that you are working incredibly long hours. The mail room. It has a purpose.
Yeah.
The purpose is not to to prove that you’re worthy. It’s to break you down to the bare bones and train you on the specific systems, methodologies and strategies that the agency employs across the board. So yes it. Yes, the days were 1416. Yes, the pain was $10.00 an hour back in 2012. Yes, I can barely afford the rent, but the point was can W need build a foundation for those in the mail room to help them succeed and grow throughout the company?
Yeah.
And I couldn’t see that necessarily at the time. But I can look back 1213 years later and say, oh, there was actually a fundamental purpose there.
Yeah. And I think and I’m not saying that I know Ari Emanuel, but I’ve listened to a lot about him and a lot about the way he goes about it. I think that that’s completely part of his own ethos and that he can probably do all those things still today.
Oh, absolutely.
What? He’s a. He can do whatever he wants. Whole family is ridiculous.
Yeah.
Things they’ve accomplished. But I think that that, that top down leadership. My question to you is how many people did you see around you in the same position? Fail?
I believe I’m the only person left in my original. Room class still at the agency. Now, that statistic doesn’t mean everyone. Many of them succeeded in choosing move on. To answer your question. The vast majority of the people that went into the mailroom would ultimately become assistants, but the vast majority of them would not make it past being an assistant. A small percentage, a small handful of us became coordinators, which is basically a junior agent and then on to AG. So even to this day, I couldn’t sit here and tell you one person that that I started with on the same day that stalled the company. And that’s not, that’s not. That’s not anything except my decision to abstain is that that was my path.
Yeah, but it’s also, it’s also a way to weed people out and make sure that everybody who’s there is actually bought into it because that’s the time you get to that place and you think back up to all the investment that’s been put in you you probably do.
Was my journey. Correct.
To do things. One is you say screw these. I’m going to find something better or two as you go. Put me where I am. To stay.
Right in and I’m the ladder. Because while it was hard to see in the beginning, the first couple of years, even as a coordinator, as an agent, there were so many incredible opportunities. I had to remind myself constantly I was getting paid and sexy. The access the capabilities, the credentials, being able to say that I worked where I worked and be alone, that that came with.
Sure.
Sure.
And and luckily you had an age where that was still very important.
Correct.
You’re not going to go in at 40 years old with a family and and give a crap about that.
Like I was single and no kids, right? Right.
It’s World Trade.
I was in LA, ultimately transferred to Nashville office. There. There were specific things about my life. That allow that to be the right path for me.
And the nature of what those perks are changed too, right where it used to be. All you’re doing is running around trying to chase girls and all of a sudden you’re like in the room with some of the. Powerful people. And you’re like, oh, Oh my goodness. A. Piece. But you were able to do that because of the stage in life you were at.
That’s correct. And also as a human, the things that I was looking. In life, you know. Didn’t go to LA to live in LA. I went to LA to go to grad school. Room was my grad. You can go and get a formalized education in this country, in law, in medicine and and and you can become a teacher.
Yeah, sure.
Right.
Yeah, actually.
But there isn’t there. There is no.
Very cool usually.
Course when it tends to be an agent. Yeah. So male room was my grad school. I went to LA because I wanted to be at the mothership. I wanted to be at the hub of it all because I wanted to see the largest agency in the world and see the nucleus and that’s what I got to do.
Yeah, I love. We’re going to pick buck up at the break because we’re going to talk about that agency and and just what the world is like there. Listening to market amendment on extra 106 three, we’ll be right back. Welcome back to the marketing man on Action, 106.3. Our conversation with my boy Mike. And. You set up the scenario of working through the mailroom. And again, I want to reiterate this to everyone who thinks that’s just like urban legend. It is very real and lots of companies still do it today. Anywhere there is demand, there is a mail room whether you start as an intern, whether you start in the the ticketing class, whatever it is, sports. They are sitting there trying to make sure you understand the nuance of how all these departments work, because they want the best. The best and usually if there’s as much demand it is, it’s because they are the best of the best. We’re going to Fast forward a little. So this probably starts as more your coordinator, but when did it start? For. When did you start seeing what the industry was like and how partnerships worked and how important relationships were? Deep were you into? Where it really started and again I think you and I had these conversations as you. I kind of remember that moment. It started clicking for you. And I think it was probably right around when he started making that first time to tell kind of perfectly, but talk about when it was that moment and what what what clicked for you that you like. All right, I can get.
Yeah.
Is something I can do and. Can be great at.
This and it’s a really good question and and I’m going to choose the answer in a pretty specific way because I understood. The mechanics of the industry that was never a foreign to me. Once I read a very specific book right.
I.
Understand the mechanics of how to throw a. Doesn’t mean I’m going to be out there pitching in the majors.
Right, correct. But I think your question is more of when you’re all start clicking and when you’d all start start start becoming one comprehension of of a larger of a larger ecosystem.
For years.
And I would. You know. When I was an assistant and later in my tenure as an assistant, the picture started becoming really, really clear. And as I became a more senior assistant in the company, I was, you know, three years at this point. I recognize that this is what I wanted to do and. I ultimately felt that this was something I could become good at. Knew that I still a lot. Learn, but what I. To learn was not how the. Works but. Had to learn how to become an agent. And becoming an agent isn’t about how well can you negotiate a deal per SE. It’s about understanding the industry as a whole. Trends in the marketplace. You know the comparisons and comps that are happening around you. But I think more important. Becoming an agent is about framing and positioning. How do you ultimately achieve a goal that you were trying to achieve through conversation, through e-mail, through text, and how do you represent your clients in the best way possible to ultimately get to their goal because. I believe, and I’ve been working very hard for the last 12 years to to try to erase this stigma, that when you hear the word agent, you just assume money, right? The 10 percenters because we. Well, our company is is is earning its money off 10.
Now that said, that’s almost any sales role in anything.
From the deal we do. Correct.
Thought is is why does this need a sales? And I will tell you if you think that way, you just don’t know how to deal with sales people because sales people job is to make the transaction easier, never harder.
That’s correct.
The 10% that a sales person does for you will save you 30% in how easy and how much easier. Is to execute things.
7030% headache.
At least every. Every single time but, but go on. Yeah.
And it’s it’s understanding the insurance and outs and the nuances. So people think about, oh, well, an agent is there to get the most money possible. That’s not wrong in the sense that yes, we are trying to ultimately capture the most dollars possible. But it’s. The structure of the deal. Right. So if a if a particular brand in, in, in this instance wants an artist to perform a certain set of services, well, they may not know that the artist. Don’t want. Not in your best interest and don’t care. Or frankly, they may not have insight as to what’s coming down the pipeline for the artists that they can’t just get on the phone and call the artist doesn’t want to talk to them.
Yeah, annoying. The artist. The artists don’t just give 10% away because it’s like fun for them to do it.
Correct. Correct.
Don’t want to talk? The. The line is drawn. One of the things that I and it’s so similar what I do, especially in the sports world, but I think one of the things you’re really trying to say is there’s a difference between price and value and you are trying to establish a value proposition for all parties.
That’s correct.
Including. And now that you have. In the game, it makes it easier to understand what the other two sides want, because when they come to an agreement, you win more, which is a positive sign when negotiation.
The simplest. To put it is I’m a translator, right? I translate the language that the artist speaks to the language that the brain speaks and vice versa. Because these brands are out to produce a product, provide a service. Maybe they’re a nonprofit or A501C3.
They’re out there to increase the bottom line, however. State what their bottom line. That’s what they’re trying to do, correct? You believe something is there to increase their bottom line?
And I think importantly for this conversation to. The fact. They are. They are brands that that are not in the entertainment business. Have to make a proactive decision. To engage with and work with it with an artist well, that industry, the artist entertainment industry speaks his own language. So when? Have a brand that manufacturers a product and that’s what they are experts in. And then you have an artist who’s an expert in creating art. They don’t talk to each other, they don’t mesh. They need someone to help translate, and there are so many nuances in both the brand world and the artist. For example, if you’re a brand and you’re a Fortune 500 company, you’re going to have corporate policies you have to worry about.
Oh my God.
There’s no corporate policy in the artist world, and you can’t. The artist can do what? Want when they want because they’re. They create, they have an artistic vision and they’re looking to express.
The only town I would put there is the bigger you get, the more you’re on tour, then all of a sudden like live nations protocols come in place of what they. There are more things that come as you get bigger, but while as its core a person can speak on whoever the hell they want to and they can do whatever the hell they want to and they.
It’s great.
Have to worry about the brand logos and all that and.
Artist is an independent entity.
And they’re because of the demand on them that gives them even more freedom and flexibility. Pretty. And now there are very few instances where brands become so big that they can get into that lexicon. If they can do whatever they want. Usually it’s the. Need access to the entertainers? And not vice versa, right?
Because think. The very basic psychology of advertising, right, the most successful of advertising is word of mouth, the human on human relationship. I’ve known you for 15 years. If you suggest a product or service to me, I’m significantly more inclined to try that product or service than if I’m driving on the latency billboard or TV commercial. Brands engage talent because of the relationship that the talent has built with their. And. They want to take advantage of that relationship.
Of course.
Now, do you agree with me, though, that that has gotten to be to the point where you can almost tell when people are faking and you got to be really careful nowadays because the I think people have gotten much smarter.
Hey.
They’re more educated and I think. Word influencer has destroyed all this because you have all these **** holes ’cause I can’t say the other word out. That are just throwing their name out. They’re saying I have a million followers, but no influence is actually taking place. Then you got to be careful. Can’t fake. You should not be talking about something that you don’t actually believe in or use, and I think the brands have gotten smarter to that. And I think the artists have too. They say no more to a lot more stuff because they don’t want to be associated with the. That is not something that that they do, because I think it becomes clear and it doesn’t work for anybody. You’re kind of the liaison to make sure that works also, right?
Correct.
You know this artist like, look, if that’s a. Barrel guy. You’re not going to put him? Going to put him. An Applebee’s like it just doesn’t work that way.
Yeah.
Won’t fit and. Never going to be a long term relationship.
Consumers are not dumb. Right at the end of. Day and I think this was really exacerbated during COVID when people were stuck at home and paying sick leave, more attention to the media that was being fed. Them through their. Yeah, if you are a true fan of an artist, you can pick up pretty quickly when what they’re saying, doing or or promoting is not authentic to them. Look, there’s 3 words that I absolutely hate. Are the pillars of our industry authentic, organic and synergy? Because. What good does it do for either brand or the artist to try to force messaging down of consumer or fans throughout that is inauthentic. Look a number if there’s a certain number of zeros on the paycheck that shouldn’t have bearing on whether or not an artist decides to. Messaging in front of their fans. Artist has worked. Sometimes decades, to build those relations. Are incredibly valuable, but also very fragile, and their House of Cards. They can be destroyed when in moment.
And, but there’s also. Demand there will be charged what they are because people are willing. Pay for. And that’s another thing that people don’t understand is. Economies. This like the fact that somebody’s willing to pay for that. Worth someone can offer you to pay you to find fair. $5 and a beer to do something, but that’s on how the market.
The fair. Value is defined by what someone is going. Pay for their service A.
For good or service, and when you get the artists who are the in the highest demand, that’s when your eyes light up. Because now you would see the money on the other side and you probably have the relationships and now look, there’s a certain amount of trust, I think that both parties have to. Each other and that’s another thing for. That’s another thing for me in my relationships. When I facilitate those relationships, I have two sides of of the I can **** both of them off, right?
Oh yeah.
That’s not the way it works. The artist can **** the brand off. Brand can miss the guy himself. In the. You can **** both of them. That is risk on. You’re putting yourself on your line to be the liaison between these things. That is worth a premium. I mean, that’s ultimately how it works. So we’ve gone completely off topic as I. Do on the show. So let’s talk about the day-to-day. Talk about how WME. Is. Structured. How many agents are there around what you’re doing? You compete with each. How are you figuring out what to go after? Look like how long does an average deal take to get on up and ground and running? What’s the term of it? I want to set up the kind of unsexy stuff because I think there are plenty of people that are listening that I want to do that, and I don’t want to scare them away. Let’s be realistic because. These things I know your deal cycle is not. Let’s go have a. We’re going to sign a. These are incredibly complicated deals. 1 The RSS approved. They have a set of stipulations. If you’ve ever seen a rider for a band to play, something you. What those stipulations are? You can have a band who’s played three hits in their entire life like I need. Granola from this farm. In Oregon, and I will not play. I. Have that granola like they’re nuts. Yeah, that being said, the brand set of protocols are almost as nuts. What you can and can’t say and where you go from it.
That’s correct.
So talk a little bit about that, I will ask you the questions. You give an answer that is a frame, so. What is the average time to negotiate structure and get a deal to paper?
Well says. Average because I can knock out a social media, run off social media, post in a couple of days, but a larger tour sponsorship might take me 3 months to negotiate.
Three months and it could be with a client that you had already known for two years that you had two years to wait and that client, the last thing you pitched wasn’t right.
That’s correct.
They have to wait for the right artist to come.
Right. Well, maybe this tour isn’t right or the budget didn’t get approved by the CMO in time. So we have to wait for a whole new touring cycle, which is effectively a whole calendar year. Sometimes I’ll miss a show. But another. Months before I can take it again.
And it’s one of those things where I’m sure you have gone into it any the situation’s been right and you close a deal like. And like, how the hell did that just right?
Absolutely. Some of the some of the larger deals that I’ve done that historically would have taken me months to do can sometimes be done in just a couple of days if we set things up now one, I would think exception to that is on renewals, right if we. To copy and paste a deal for a year 2 or year 3. There’s going to be like a split split. But the first iteration was a multi month process.
Yeah. And I think COVID another thing that changes it speed up the process of change so much that even the artists now. I mean you got these guys that have a hit, they can go from hit to being nobodies in like 6 months. Wasn’t the case, especially in country. My understanding is they had a pretty good farm system of who was going to be. They go from the little club venues and they go to the. The roxies where we are the.
Go to theaters, then they go to arenas.
Pigs and. The baseball.
Knows where the baseball stadiums.
Then they go to the tours and they have a pretty good and then they have the opening acts that follow through and kind of. System that’s kind of got Thorn completely out of whack now, so it’s even harder to predict the future. So. So we got the term changes, but let’s say on average let’s talk about a really big deal is going to be, let’s call it three to nine months is your 10 year that happening. There’s shorter. So talk about the smallest deal over the past 12 months. What? What’s an example of what? A small deal is not money, just like what does it look like?
Yeah, small deals is a one off social media post. It’s one of our artists, or one of the other talent that we represent. Ultimately just being engaged by a brand to do one single social media post, whether that’s a single frame Instagram story, a single TikTok Post, you know, and those, those, those can be. From a financial perspective, for you know 5 figure deals, right? Then talk about that.
So what determines those price sensitivities? It the. Is it how many followers they have? How big of a name they? What are the metrics that go into you pricing because one of the things I’ve seen when you look at when agencies evaluate these things? Have no idea what they’re talking about. They make up fake numbers and just say this is what this is worth and it’s like, wait a second because you don’t you love it where you’re in. Brand wants it, but then their agency comes back and say it’s not worth that much.
Yeah, there’s several different ways to do it, but I would say that the most important thing to to to really understand for. Is like it’s backed up by data. So we have the beauty of social media is. Data around. So display what anyone says. Gross followers or collective followers actually are not the driving factor for most of the brand decision making and not the driving factor for how we necessarily put. Value against a post, its engagement, right?
Sure. And to be fair, everyone has a different set of engagement protocol.
Correct.
Right is. You followed it through all the way to. Who purchased? Well, you better have some pretty ******* good advanced mechanisms to track said things that you can follow it through, or his engagement. Just how many people interacted it and spread that band, which caused the virality which ultimately everybody wants.
Right. And it’s it is extremely rare in 2024 for a brand to not ask for screenshots of a particular talents. Social media analytics, right? Back. You know, give you the last 30 days clicks, links, impressions, shares, views, comments because that data. Oftentimes they’re plugging into their own algorithm for what the brand determines is fair. Value for that type of thing. That’s a huge challenge because. I’ll give a great example. A brand may come to me and say we’re going to offer this artist $5000 for this social media. And I’ll tell them, well, they actually earn closer to $15,000 for that and the brand may say, well, our algorithm tells us based on the data. And I have to stop them right there and say, well, hold on. You just asked this artist to go create. Content that could take them 30 minutes an hour, two hours. They can hop on stage and make 10X on that in a 2 hour period. So why should they take your $5000 deal when they can tax that in the same amount of period so that? Have to stop the brand and say, listen what you’re asking them. Part of that. Is how much reach how much exposure, how many clicks. But the artist can’t control that. So the artist has to hedge the bet that the content they’re making is engaging enough to produce the results that the brand wants. So in a way, it’s almost a bet. So how do I mitigate the risk of the brand under or overpaying with the artist? Feels like what? Earning is fair market compensation.
Well, I think it’s also goes back to supply demand, right. One of the reasons that ours can charge more is because they take less of these things. And if an artist took a crappy $5000 post, then no ones going to pay 15,000. So where do?
Correct.
Draw the line of what fair market value is, but worse what you want to charge is. Again, the bigger the. Because let’s not. Let’s talk about something right now. Whether this is sports or country music, your fandom has something really big to do.
That’s correct.
It. Like no matter what we say, the analytics. But if you’re talking to the CEO of a company who really likes his, he’s. To do whatever the hell he wants to.
I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had a deal either fall through or succeed because. A CEO or CMO 10 year old daughter or 14 year old son was a fan of the that artist and and their father or mother had. Heard of the person before?
I will say if you want to take one piece of advice out of this because ironically, what Jasper and I do is so similar. I’m just in the sports. World, but ultimately you have no idea how much influence of these teams. That’s why people want to be a part of teams and. There is so much passion and fandom around this that that that is part of the influence. Like there are people out in that stadium. We’re in the brave stadium, we’re in the battery right now. Walking past the stadium that have signs in that outfield that have no business with signs but their fans and they want to be in the outfield.
The remain part of it.
B to B they it should never be something. But you know what? Doesn’t. Logic and reason go out the window and you know what else? If you can find the person who really makes those Dec. You will be a good sales person for the rest of your life. Don’t. Don’t listen to the agency. Change like water. Get them out of there. Be be. Talk to them, but they mean nothing in this chain of events. If a person of power in the decision making wants to make that decision, they’re going to make it. Know what they’re going to. They’re going to high 5 you and tell the agency to go F off and the best thing in the world is when you get to watch it happen. Relationships also work, so if there’s a piece of ice at any of this, I’m not saying. You’re. The mailroom go walk up to the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. Be like, hey, hey, how you? I’m like it doesn’t work that way, but when you get to a point in your career where you do have influence of those people. The stuff that we’re talking about right now. Now, don’t matter if they believe in the artist or they believe in you, and I’m sure you’ve had those things where you know what.
Yeah.
Trust. You know, many contracts outside where someone just like. They don’t even. They talk through it, they want to get their stuff out, but then they don’t even look. Usually it’s covered in somehow Maple syrup and bourbon when we sign, or maybe blood on the contract. But but but I’m saying like, that’s part of tenure. Part of doing something for 13 years because.
In that moment in time, it’s not about the words in ink on the paper, it’s about the relationship you’ve built and and the trust. And that person that, that decision maker is game with you. At the end of the day, when you’re doing your deals, you have an objective because this is. They have an objective because this is business, but you also have a responsibility to make sure that you are protecting their interests as well as your own interests, because you want. That’s correct. The best word in our entire industry renewal.
Wants to be a long term. And that’s. Biggest difference? The biggest thing you can understand is that if you are trying to set up yourself to succeed, new business is the lifeblood of any organization. But if you’re not renewing the business, none of it matters because you’re. Chasing your tail. So I think this has been great. Been completely off topic again. So let’s circle back. Talk. So let’s talk about some of the mega deals like talk about the, the, the complex. Talked about Zack, Brian and Bud. Yeah. So.
And we can talk about Luke Combs and T-Mobile. We can talk about Kane Brown and Crown Royal, right? Can talk about this huge what we call 360 deals that involve. Touch points and in their tooling with the artists themselves and it’s it’s it’s marketing and social media and PR and personal appearances. Mean there’s these these multiple? Elementary Multi Elemental 360 deals they’re becoming fewer and further between because as you said, brands are getting smarter but they’re they’re blast to work on.
Yeah. And I think one of the things that this has evolved so much over the past 10 years, I remember 10 years ago when I was at Live Nation, I was running sponsorship like because they had a deal with Starwood at the time. Can only stay at Starwood Hotels.
Yeah.
That was part of the deal. Like you don’t understand. You know how much a company like Live Nation is traveling if they’re only going to starboard. Hotels think about how much. Line that is but. Has to stay somewhere, so who cares if there’s? Starwood, they agreed to get a. Part of that deal is, like, all right, if you get Luke homes or if you get Zach, Brian, they’re drinking. Bye. But they’re out of they caught in a bar on social media, drinking course like, do you know how bad that is for the entire thing?
Yeah, that’s that’s a grenade.
That’s a grenade, but people don’t think that way. That’s part of this deal.
Mm.
You’re asking this artist. Who’s lived their whole life, probably on drug addled. Doing whatever they want to now. Hey, you can’t have this competitive beer. That’s why it’s worth the money. Where they. But that’s not how the brands think. Brands think it. They just should just be that way.
Right. I would say one of my one of my biggest pain points of my job is when a brain strokes the check. And feels like they own the artist, right? I often have to remind the brands you’re working with a human being here. Like, there’s going to be slip. Ups, there’s going. Be especially if that artist doesn’t have a lot. Experience working in the brand space, right? A learning curve. Training wheels.
I I think the ones that have experience in it also know when to say no a lot more and like some of these guys they they see that first check and it might not even be the money.
Yes.
Knows some of these guys don’t need the money, but they saw that you know. Hey I I just saw. I saw this artist go. Done. He has all this stuff I need to. I need to do that.
Right. We can talk about non monetary value all day because oftentimes it’s not the money that’s the main driver, but for the purpose of our conversation, often times if an artist and their team have their their wits about them, they’ll look at the deal terms and say yeah, that. We’ll breach this contract and not mean to, so they’ll protect themselves by not entering into it.
Yeah. And that’s one of those things like. Contracts get really tricky because when you. Lawyers in. A lawyer’s job is to keep things vague. There’s more hours of.
Makes makes makes it makes it harder to breach the contracts.
Well, but what breach is? There’s no objectivity in what a breach is like you said, this is XYZ and you did this post, but in the brand’s head they thought it was supposed to reach as many people.
Correct.
Wasn’t. That’s not how the world. That’s not part of the actual contract and that’s what goes into a contract. Does it mean? Look, we’re negotiating intellectual. We just extended our deal with the university. Of Georgia since 10 years ago, when I started to now, do you know, much harder it? To negotiate a deal with the University of Georgia. Much more complex that intellectual property.
I got I got that contract I. The contract went from 10 pages to 100 pages.
You know what the beauty of it? It is a one piece of paper that we signed with the University of to.
No way.
That being said, the trust that is there is what has evolved, but what goes in now how nil becomes there, then all of a sudden we learn from the experiences. Where I’m thrilled that the the way the contract is written is one that elicits trust between. Both sides, but that doesn’t make us less. That makes us more careful because they can just say you breached it. If you want to, because if the terms aren’t laid out. So I just say that as you get into again, one of the things is I went through my career. I was terrified of. I didn’t want to get into Bob and now in that world I live in that. I hate that I live in that world, but if you understand that world, you are at a severe, serious advantage over people. I understand that.
Yeah, I mean, some of these contracts can go twenty 30-40 pages because you have to lay out a a. For what happens in any given situation, and you might have a 40 page contract that lays out, you know 50 different situations or scenarios, and then the one the 51st that you didn’t put in there is. One that actually happens, the real life.
I’m going to say next contract. Extra 12 payments.
That’s. Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.
And again. Lawyers love. Right, force majeure means an act of God. What does that even? That’s a biblical term. By the definition of mankind, God is fake. You mean it’s force? So we get into these things and. Can talk, we.
Can nerd out on contracts for hours.
But again it it’s so. Of all this, so we got one more minute lesson in this. Talk about the your favorite deal you ever does, big or small, is just the one that sticks out in your head. And why was your favorite?
I did a really wonderful deal for an artist of ours named Eric Paslay back in 2016. I believe it was, and this deal is always stuck out to me. We were. So Eric’s a type of diabetic. We were approached by a company called Dexcom with the town and created something called the CGM, a continuous glucose monitor. And I was able to broker a meaningful deal. For Eric as an ambassador for Dexcom. And it I would, I would say, fundamentally changed his life because up until the moment that deal was signed and he got the product in hand, Eric was pricking his fingers to test his insulins. And and blood sugar. And from that moment on, even to this day now he wears a patch. An app that goes on to his phone. That means his wife, who’s on the road, his tour manager and he’s on stage, can see his glucose levels. I just think that you know. I’m in a business where I pair brands and artists and a lot of times it’s a temporary relationship, but this had a massive impact on his life and I think that I feel very fortunate to be the the gateway to improve someones life through a brand partnership.
Yeah, but the same time it works for everybody involved. Right now, all of a sudden you have an artist who uses something a.
Started.
That he did to change his. You have a brand who probably saw a brand lift like crazy because it was actually something that was being utilized and you would use that felt the reward not only helping a person. But helping a brand when everybody wins in a deal, they get. There’s no EV answer, but unless you know what if he doesn’t have diabetes, there’s a million reasons.
Yeah, but in that particular situation, I did and it was a wonderful multi.
Why would renew but?
One relationship.
Wonderful. Alright, we’re gonna keep this conversation going in segment 3. Listening to Marcus man an. 106.3, we’ll be right. Alright, welcome back to the marquee man on extra. 06. This is been an intense conversation. We’ve weaved in and. It’s it’s gone fast, but I want to do a pass and a future, OK? Did the. We do the past and future so. What advice would you give yourself? Besides, don’t take the bus from LA to Vegas to see it and end up playing roulette. The Crown Prince from. Whatever weird country from the night before.
Yeah, yeah, that was.
Besides, don’t do. Give advice to your younger self.
My younger, obviously my myself, despite the stresses, the anxieties and the worries that I was constantly carrying throughout the mailroom, and as an assistant and as a young agent, it actually will be OK. Will turn out alright. It’s just so hard to see even 1 foot in front of you when you feel like you’re you’re drowning and you’re trying to.
Keep your head above. Yeah. So I will add to that by saying any person who thinks that stress and anxiety aren’t part of life is.
You’re. Out of the minds.
A fool stress is a body’s reaction and you are going to cortisol because your body is reacting to something and anxiety is because we used to be Wanderers. Were hundreds and gatherers that would be chased by animals trying to kill us. What anxiety is it’s telling your body that it’s time to run. Time to fight. Fight. It’s how you handle anxiety and that stress that differentiates the most success. Some people get off on it and the stress.
Correct.
Them want to do. Some people just take a step back and like you know what, it’s.
Mm.
As. As I think I am but but I think advice to everybody is it’s never as bad as you think it is. If you look and have context, there’s always somebody that has.
It way worse than you that being said.
When you get to this point in your. You can easily look. And say I am worth this much, not because of. Now, because of all the calls. I put in back then and it is a really hard thing, but I could tell you this bosses and the highest of people they have an eye for that. They want you to hold that grudge about those things back then, because that’s what makes you pressing forward and.
Yeah.
On anymore. Which? Part of what you want to leave.
Well, I think related to that and and to me, this is something that I tell many people. Can one of the most dangerous things that I used to do was compare myself to other people? I used to look at everyone else around me and think they’re bigger. They’re better. They’re faster, they’re stronger, and it used to take a real toll on me. But what? I didn’t realize because I didn’t have the tools at the time. I have the tools now, right? My late 30s. I working with my therapist for several years. I have the tools now to. That. Was so deep in my own narrative. That I just assumed others thought about me. What I thought about myself. And that was a major.
That’s human. That’s that’s on you. You make a depiction of yourself of what you believe other people to think of you. That’s correct. And there’s a million things.
Well, I was comparing myself to everyone around me because I thought they were. Were better than me. You know that self.
That’s so. I think if I was going to say one of the superpowers I have is since the day I don’t give an F and crap about what someone thinks about me and I, you know me, I’ve lived a lot of places. I’ve moved a lot. I’ve seen a lot. Things I failed, I’ve. Succeeded. I’ve kind of winged it and a lot of it just because like I was young, I didn’t feel tethered to anywhere and seeing all those things have changed my perspective. You know everybody the most wealthy, the most happy people, usually the ones that go home to the most family problems, right? Ones that are always the ones are showing off their $1,000,000 cars are the ones that have the most debt.
That’s right.
You only see the tip of the iceberg. People show you. The other thing is is. When my kids were born, I made a conscious effort that social media was over. The reason was is that I have no. If pictures. Out for me back in the. Yeah, my wife might divorce me, but other than. I’ll be fine. Like but I don’t want my children to be tied to these outward facing mechanisms that they feel like they have to be those things well.
As unfortunately, everyone’s sports in our top ten social media is everyone’s highlight reel.
And they only see the best I saw. Not going to say who it was. Was at a concert. Saw a girl. She was sitting there and she would literally take a picture of herself and zoom in and like, correct her teeth on Instagram before she would post in. Middle of a concert we wanted to special pumpkins. I’m like, are you kidding? This is what you’re doing in the middle of a concert, that’s how. What your life is, and that’s socks, man. Again, we’ve gone. Topic. So let’s let’s end with this, OK? I’ve been in the music industry through Live Nation sports industry for a long time. Have been an. You have been involved in all this. What does the future of these deals look like? Do we go from? Because I have seen brands are going to cut back. You’re going to see brands that they’re so over stretched the deltas of the world, the amex’s, they are stretching so many different places. Where do we go? I think AR becomes a thing augmented reality so. These brand experiences that really pop. So instead of, let’s say, a baseball game, you’re between innings now. All of a sudden, the outfield pops up and you have these characters coming out that are become advertisers. It’s engaging. I think that will. Technology will always play a part, but where do you see some of these partnerships going? The?
Next couple years, I think both as consumers and as brands. The thing that is the most effective is to create lasting memories. If your brain and your sampling of physical product as people walk out of the venue or sports stadium, that product is a consumable. It will be. It will be thrown in the trash. Right. But. Memory will last forever. I. I believe that we’ll see a lot of a lot of brains. So investing more in memory, making virality type moments in time, you know, I.
Think what you agree the problem is is those are very hard to fake. And the thing you’re very hard to I. Hate the word organic just like. But there are moments that are organic that are memorable, and there are things that are.
Forced. Yeah, I.
And if you. If you force them, the consumer’s gotten smart enough to know that. A fake number.
Yeah. Look, fakes are not one of my favourite marketing campaigns ever is Lyft. Undercover driver. I just think it is so brilliant and so smart and it’s it’s campaigns like that that to me personally is 1 human. But as someone who works in industry industry. I believe they’re really impactful. The undercover driver was. Take. Lyft is the. It was a content. It was a it was a brand who wanted to have a little bit of fun. You know who’s doing it the best in the world right now? Liquid. There is nobody better, in my opinion, this marketing. Than liquid death.
You want.
You want to make a bet. OK, that company will either be sold off in the next six months or because that momentum that they’ve created, there’s no way it continues. They’re going to have to go mainstream.
Sure.
Going to have to be standardized again to the Kroger. And everything they will either they will either be sold off. All those people that all that thing, the growth will stagnate and they will become like every other brand. And here’s why. When all of a sudden you realize you go to the grocery and your groceries are now $200 out of $100 and you realize. You’re paying for. In a can because of. You’re like that is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard in my entire life. It’s not a criticism. They’ve done a wonderful job.
No problem.
I’ve been around a lot of CMOS and all of them. The same. These flash in the PAN brands they. But they know what. Are OK you can’t extend that line any further.
Let me ask you a quest. Who do you think is the best? Brand marketing or who has the best marketing in the world do.
You think shoot, man. It’s so hard to say. I think that Google makes some of the most impactful ads that. With what I do in my life, but they’re also monopoly, so they can have fun with whimsy, with what they do, and it doesn’t matter.
I’ll tell you what I think. Alright then, I think Red Bull is the most disruptive marketing company. The world.
Well, Red Bull is going to be a media company before they were Red Bull because if you ever looked, do you know how bad Monster Energy has outsold Red Bull? You know this stock, that Monster Energy on S&P 500 not. Not only was the number one gross out over 20 years was Monster Energy, no one even talks about Monster. Sell so much more than Red Bull. Will create and then you know. First one to do. They were a media company.
Hmm.
Do you wanna know why top golf succeeded? That nobody. Everyone’s like, who’s gonna do that? Built themselves a media company. So when you’re at top it off, you’re watching. Channels which have ads on. They created media companies out of those. It is switched. Now they’ve become. It’s the people who can control those marketing narratives. Google doesn’t win because you’re. Google wins because they control their own supply demand curve. When someone comes in and they start advertising, every single plumbing company that comes in just drives up the price of advertising.
Guess who wins Google? Will every time.
So again, ironically, we’re talking in circles about the same things, but. All right, so future, the. So we’re going to get, we’re going to get more towards experience. I think we’re going to go intimate. I think that we’ve festivled out.
Yeah.
Don’t want to want it with 90,000 people.
Morning can’t buy. That’s what we’re seeing a lot more of, and I think we’re also going to see brands get continue to get smarter in non monetary value. What I mean? Let’s say a brand wants an artist to be in their TV commercial, right? There will be a certain on the cash associated with that, but when the value proposition is going to come in is the brain is going to say we’re going to use your new single as the music bed in this commercial and we’re going to do a 50 million. National TV, right?
Dude, you’re talking YouTube. That was on the Apple campaign when they signed the original Apple Music Deal release. That album, and Vertigo did it because it was the Apple commercial.
That’s correct. That’s correct.
Song them back. They were out of the lexicon of people for the long.
It was permanently embedded in the software. That phone.
And. And there is a way to do. There. I mean you there are so many commercial you hear a commercial with the right track that commercial becomes popular again and some artists you haven’t heard of in 50 years somehow go to top set charts. Has changed in that sense, right?
Correct.
Katy Perry’s album dropped. Nobody was downloading that album, but you had old songs that just hit it like the one that just came out to me was the talking heads. This must be the place was just in a commercial spike the next day. Wanted they could bug their phone back. That song, they listen. Oh my God, I love to talk head. That exists more and. But again, you’re taking advantage of media that that person has already bought to build the exposure of a brand. These are. Partnerships.
It’s really complicated because in a situation like that you have to pay the record label. You have to pay the publishers and the songwriters. There are so many layers. I mean, that’s why there’s entire companies that exist to simply simply sync music. Your question was where is the future going, I think. More experiential and. I think money can’t buy experiences the word virality as much as I hate that as the other 3 is something that’s very important because it is the truth and I think we’ll see ultimately brands getting smarter and here’s what I’ll say at the end of the day.
Yeah.
I don’t know where AI is going, but AI will somehow someway in some form become a important part of the celebrity endorsement and commercial.
Yeah, so it already.
Ecosystem.
And the reason I say that is ’cause Live Nation is a data. They preemptively know the interest in the artist before they book them coming into cities, which helps them plan tours and everything. Not someone on a spreadsheet going man, that is AI reading data, scanning data and making preemptive decisions. The difference is is right now we’ve been very reactive with AI. When it starts becoming. Active where they can book 2 years out data they have.
We see a fundamental shift.
Will. Now it’s not taking over the world. Use it for the. I use so much way it can’t even transcribe this whole show in one sitting like we’re not there yet. Machines are not. I promise you we’re not even. That there are so many things I’m like. How is this so poorly done? But we will get there and I think that the data becomes more and more and more and more important. I hate it because when you bring data and you’re not using your instinct and the creativity, you can’t force an elicit to elicit an emotional reaction with data. That’s one of the things we’ve forgotten. You can look at. No one ever knew that Nirvana was going to hit with smells like teen Spirit, but something was different and the emotional connection was like. My God, they.
An.
Have tried to fake music. Come up with. They plug it into your brain. Play. Songs like you should react to this and then. We can fake creativity. So I think one of the things that’s going. We’re going to go back to garage rock. We’re going to go back to a guy and then just put out. Music and a. Virality growing not because it’s spread on social media because people start talking about this is the guy I want to go sit.
Hey guys, back to what I’m about to talk about.
And I think that’s. Of the things is we’ll. We will almost revolt against the phones and we will have a resurgence of like the old school, part of music, and let’s call it the mid 60s, early 70s. And I won’t talk about whether or not I want the drug revolution to come. We’ll keep that for another time, but it’s going to be awesome and we definitely already went over. Jasper. Appreciate it, brother. Listen a lot. You next week.
